Conundrums and Kerfuffles: Clergy Language and the Pagani
by Ruby Sara
Blessings, friends and best beloveds, from the sun-and-frost-light streets of the fiercely-wild urban midwest! The light is indeed waning. Y’all – it was dark way before 7pm the other day. My heart quailed in my chest, but I soldier weirdly on into the shadows, waiting for the lessons of Samhain to pin me down, swallowing the season’s medicine. The last few posts here at PG have been generally reflective regarding the season – it’s hard to think of much else, honestly. But, I’d hate to avoid gnarly and ouchy word-wrangles for TOO long…
So and Sew. There was a quasi-recent conversation on Pantheon, the Pagan blog at Patheos.com that sparked the resurgence of some ongoing thoughts of mine regarding language. Specifically, the use of Christian language in the pursuit of Pagan culture and expression, in this case in relation to “clergy.” So…well…I thought I’d talk about that a bit. However, as these topics sometimes do, I found that it ended up touching on some larger flying-bison-sized issues that have been on my mind…so I decided to write a bit about those too. Next thing I knew, I had something rather unwieldy on my hands, and I’ve decided to post it anyway. Saints preserve us.
Now, before I pour myself into this tumbler of trouble, I have a few things to say. First, I’d like to ask you to dance. Then, when we’re done shaking a caveat tail-feather and have sat down to a glass of spicy apple cider each, I’d like to say a couple of ridiculously and probably needlessly complicated things, and then I’ll move on to some more ridiculously and probably needlessly complicated things. I may even contradict myself multiple times in the same post. It’ll be grand.
(I should warn you that this post is pretty hellaciously long. I considered chopping it into two or more pieces, but frankly, as each piece seems to me to be intimately tied up in the other, in the end I just decided to leave it as a whole. If you wish to follow me down this uncomfortable rabbit hole after the jump, then I say: welcome. Have a cookie and a glass of iced tea – it’s a long way down.)
To Begin:
It’s no surprise to anyone reading this blog that in addition to my happy wrestlemania relationship with contemporary Pagan religions and my devotions to Dionysos, the Mama, the Beloved, Mother Lake, my rosebushes, etc., I also have some kind of relationship with Christianity. I’ve said as much outright; though no, I don’t know what it means. But it is true that I have a personal investment in the subject.
However, in addition to my own interests, I think the subject of Christianity may be relevant to Pagans as a whole. Now, you may rightly ask me why we have to talk about Christianity at all, seeing as how we aren’t Christians and therefore don’t have to wrestle with their theological issues. And well, you might have a point. But here’s how I see it: we already DO talk about Christianity. We can’t NOT talk about it (and the people who practice it) because not only are we (as Americans…the only national experience that I can personally speak to) living in a culture that is enormously tied up in a Christian cultural and theological and philosophical matrix (among other things of course, but hugely influenced by Western Christian thought), but the very fabric of many of our own pagan traditions is historically and theologically tied up in it as well. Whether or not we are reconstructing, inventing, or syncretizing, the fact remains: contemporary Pagan/pagan religions are post-Christian phenomena, and there is a relationship there that must be explored, deeply and honestly, if we expect to grow and engage with those around us both inside and outside our traditions (even if we differ on what the goal of our growing and engaging ought to be). So bearing that in mind:
There are times that I’ve perceived (the hint of caveat tango music brushes you by) an anti-Christian bias in Pagan discourse (and towards other Abrahamic religions as well IMO, but I’m only focusing on Christianity here today), and while I absolutely and fundamentally understand the impulse to reject that which wounds (and it is a healthy impulse), I think that this impulse can become something much larger and much less healthy, and when it does it has the potential to distract us from our own growth.
Now, this is not to say that Christians do not also engage in their own bias when discussing Paganism. Uh, yeah. I was once asked, in all seriousness, if I sacrificed babies born of kidnapped women to my gods on Samhain (the answer, for all you Christine O’Donnell fans out there, is no). I mean, Chick tracts, y’all. Ignorance is a kerfuffle-maker of the highest order, and it has been duly noted that Christians, especially when it comes to Pagan religions, can fall clumsily and surely into the realm of ignorance. That ignorance, coupled with the deeply problematic “mandate” to convert others (whether by conviction, testimony, harassment or violence), a laughable misunderstanding of the religious make-up of the world (i.e. Christianity is so not the only religion in existence, yet you’d think it was the way some Christians respond when faced with reality), and a wholly warped sense of the theological Other, results in articles like this one in the UK’s Daily Mail. Sometimes the remedy for ignorance is simple education, but sometimes ignorance can run so deep and be so entrenched that it moves beyond conversation into the realm of Serious Problem (cf. religious discrimination).
And let’s be clear: I have objections to various Christian theologies, not to mention a deep-seated antipathy for certain groups of Christians operating in the world, hating Others and committing atrocities, willing and complicit with Empire. Which is why I absolutely think we ought to voice serious and critical objections to certain theologies, and loudly, but we should do so to those theologies, specifically. Me? I think original sin is a disgusting concept, and I think folks like Tertullian, Augustine and Aquinas (just as three examples) were ranting misogynists who took their rabid fear and loathing of women and injected it straight into the heart of their subsequently corrupt theologies. I think some things Jesus said were wrong: I don’t think we should operate on the assumption that the poor will always be with us, I don’t think rejecting/hating our “earthly parents” (read: embodied human life) in favor of some invisible, transcendent unearthly ones is cool, and I’m on the side of the fig tree, just for starters. I think any theology that posits the material world as corrupt in favor of some transcendent otherworld is wildly problematic (which is evident in plenty of New Age theologies as well as Christian ones), and coupled with a Cartesian mechanistic hegemony, has had grave and horrific consequences for our planet and any community coded by those in power as being too ontologically “close” to the earth, to “the flesh” / physical animal-nature / sexuality (cf. women, queer peoples, people of color, indigenous peoples, etc). I think the vast majority of interpretations regarding evangelism and prostelyzation are invasive, smug and divisive at best and oppressive, dehumanizing, and violent at worst. I think it’s hella morally bankrupt to try and justify any positive reference to slavery in the bible as valid in any way, and I think it’s totally legitimate to reject certain stories and lessons in the bible as antifeminist, heterosexist, racist, and oppressive. And I think prosperity gospel (and its New Agey cousin “the law of attraction”) is ethically suspect. And all of these theologies affect me, and you, and the planet, because they are ingrained in the dominant culture of those in power. Yes.
But, Pagans too can be guilty of ignorance when it comes to Christian history (those who claim that “polytheistic” cultures are de facto religiously tolerant versus “monotheistic” ones seem to completely gloss over the Roman Empire for some reason), and diversity of Christian theological thought (“Jesus came to abolish capitalism” vs. “Jesus came to give me McNuggets” for example), as well as the Christian, monotheist and Abrahamic origins/influence/involvment in the development and current practice of some contemporary Pagan religions and religionists (cf. Renaissance hermeticism, ceremonial magic, the Golden Dawn, Kabbalah, etc…and that’s not even mentioning Joanne Pearson’s Wicca and the Christian Heritage). And it is also true that Christianity, not unlike Wicca and other religions, is comprised of a wide variety of interpretations, some that are anathema to me, and some that are wholly in line with the liberal and radically left politics and theologies I espouse. Like, the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. Was he perfect? No. But he did enormous, great and incredible works, and his Christian convictions were the pillars of that work. I also happen to like the ideas of forgiveness, charity, peace and love (of course these things are not exclusive to Christianity, but sometimes they are perceived to be…by both sides). A religion that inspires people to freedom and justice is a good thing in my wee book. I think Baptism and Communion are gorgeous rites that have deep resonating themes along earth-based lines (and are themselves of course much older form-wise than their Christian incarnations). And I think the bible is replete with poetry and beauty. What does all THAT mean? I don’t know. I’m saying all this is complicated, and by painting all of Christianity with the Big-Mega-Evil-Brush, we ignore theological diversity, history, and nuance. And the actual truth about any religion is absolutely and fundamentally impossible to perceive without nuance. History is complicated. Religion is complicated.
What I’m saying is, for a bunch of reasons, some absolutely understandable (and other less so), many Pagans are pissed off about “Christianity,” and many Christians are bewildered and uncomfortable about “Pagan religions” when they’re not disgusted by them outright. And when it comes to the subject of “clergy” language (i.e. reverend, priest, minister, clergy, pastor, etc. vs. priestess, gothi/gythia, shaman, druid, witch, etc.), I think it’s possible that some of this can come into play.
But more to the point re: clergy language (and thus the issues of “mainstreaming” and pagan ecclesiology), I’m not convinced that in the world we live in right now, some organization isn’t called for. And due to a number of factors, Christianity and other organized religions are just that: organized. Yes, they’ve had thousands of years of hegemony to work on that – and in many ways that very organization is part of the problem. But on the other hand…
Look. Ultimately, I’m against civilization. I’m against large institutional religions (and states, and governments, and grocery stores, etc.), and I think (like Daniel Quinn has posited in The Story of B) that in a world that lives fully within an embodied, reciprocal, sense-oriented, animist and relationship-oriented worldview, ecclesial (and salvific) religions are obsolete. I believe that the ultimate expression of a workable (not perfect, just workable/sustainable) human spirituality and culture is perhaps most beautifully and naturally expressed in the anarchic, earth-based, reciprocal cultures of the world. However, we, being the members of an industrial, consumer-driven culture, do not operate in that cultural framework any longer. We do not live in that world. And I further believe that merely being aware of this difference is not enough to truly change our cultural way of being in the world to that of a reciprocal, community-driven, land-based worldview (what some have termed “re-wilding”). This change requires an enormous, arduous, years and decades and centuries-long process. One that may not even be possible for an individual within her lifetime…and may not be possible for individuals at all. Worldview shifts occur when whole communities and groups of people change their course. We cannot merely make intellectual rejections of civilization and think we’re quit of it. We are still culpable. We are still immersed. We are still civilized. We know our culture and our worldview is unsustainable and wrong, but a worldview cannot be changed overnight.
And given that our current worldview and the way in which we live in the world is inherently unsustainable, I believe that we will not be living in this world much longer either. The tides are turning rapidly. It is painfully possible that our world and our culture will look radically and shockingly different twenty years from now than it does today. We cannot continue to consume at the rate that we do and expect to keep it up forever. Movements like the Dark Mountain Project, Green Wizardry, Transition Towns and others are all based on this principle, and their numbers are growing. We know something is wrong.
Now, religion and spirituality exist in both reciprocal and in civilized cultures (to borrow terms from Daniel Quinn – “leaver” and “taker” cultures). Their approaches to spirit are radically different than each other, but it remains a fact that the human impulse towards spirit, towards that ineffable, ecstatic, authentic relationship (with the gods, the land, the spirits and powers of the world/universe), has been a consistent piece of human culture since the beginning of our human awareness – sitting in that chair and looking in the distance. Worldviews change through a change in culture, and if religion and spirituality are an intrinsic part of human culture, then religion and spirituality of course too must change.
Spirit dies when it is shackled to stagnation, oppression, domination, hegemony, etc. Those religions that operate under these rubrics are the religions of civilization, and as such they too are unsustainable. Yet, I personally have observed that those peoples living in civilized societies, even if they acknowledge that civilization is an untenable state of being in the world, and even if they acknowledge that institutionalized, civilized religion ultimately cannot stand, are still operating in a civilized worldview. Me. I am operating in this worldview. You. You are operating in this worldview. Worldviews are not jackets, and they cannot be shrugged off overnight. Thus, in my opinion, the attempts of those to establish new purely land-based religions and communities have been met with an enormous uphill battle. Religions that ought to embody the living traditions of the earth instead become bogged down in disorganization, physical and emotional exhaustion, rampant consumerism, and uncorroborated fantasy – all hallmarks of civilization.
So, given all that wild speculation, I sometimes wonder, sincerely, if a transitional tradition might be better suited to the project – one that combines the best of our organized church structure with living, breathing, poetic, art-based, storytelling, bioregionally land-based practices/theologies…in order to assist the civilized spiritual mind in reclaiming the worldview that comes most naturally to it, that of a reciprocal, earth-based, ecstatic, relationship-oriented way of being. At the very least, I can say that I believe that the terminologies and methodologies of ecclesia are not inherently corrupt, and may actually be incredibly useful in pursuit of a relationship with the planet this is centered on authenticity and wholeness.
Which leads me back to this again: religion is complicated. Syncretism happens, has happened, and is happening, for many and sundry reasons, some natural and organic, some violent and vile, but it remains a truth that at this point in time for sure, syncretism is happening. What is important in this syncretic world is the cultivation of theological and ethical integrity (wherein inconsistencies will inevitably occur but are acknowledged and grappled with), respect, and an awareness of history. All of which, when employed, also make clear markers between the act of borrowing/adapting from dominator cultures (that have already borrowed/adapted from earlier cultures) in order to lift up alternative cultures, and the act of cultural appropriation, which involves the ignorant and arrogant acquisition of cultures that have already been decimated by colonialism.
Thus, based on all of the above, I am postulting that it may be legitimate to adopt/reclaim terminologies, methodologies, theologies and practices from the dominator culture, and adapt them in place if they are deemed useful. (A good case in point would be ADF. As a [new] member myself, I’m not sure how I feel about all ADF theologies, and I don’t have to, but I do love much of what they do, and I deeply respect that they do up organization, and they do it well – they put a hell of a lot of thought into what they do and how they do it, and have very much adopted many of the “trappings” of ecclesia while maintaining with no doubt that they are a wholly pagan organization, and a right successful one so far at that). In this way, it might be said that I do think the master’s tools can dismantle the master’s house (pace Audre Lorde), if it’s done with a keen eye fixed on honesty and awareness. I’m interested in counterculture, yes. But counterculture too is complicated, and when it comes down to the greater goal, I’m most interested in what works. And what works will be a multiple of things – never any one approach. Sometimes, what works is a complete rejection of every detail. But other times, what works involves adoption and adaptation – in other words, a living syncretism.
This is a very personal and ongoing struggle for me. It is a very valid criticism that all this may just be my creating an elaborate set of apologetics to mask my own personal callings. I have felt “called to ministry” since I was young. I struggled, and still do struggle, with the ever-present impulse to convert to organized religion due to the nigh overpowering desire to learn and bustle and groove within a system that is enmeshed in the questions and work of theology, religion, and service on a daily basis. And my time in seminary has biased me, yes. I saw a lot of rich, powerful and useful stuff there – language, methodology, thought. Not to mention a whole gaggle of engaged, hard-working, struggling and loving people grappling with their religions.
I think it takes training, immersion, and skill as well as talent and calling to minister well, to lead ritual well and provide pastoral care and support well (and in accordance with the law and ethical codes), to provide informed spiritual direction and perform informed public interfaith dialogue, and that’s why I support the ongoing work of institutions and programs like Cherry Hill Seminary, The Temple of Witchcraft, Solar Cross, ADF’s Clergy Training Program and the Earth Traditions Ministry Training Program. Yes, we have words that we have reclaimed, reshaped, adopted or created to describe our spiritual leadership and/or trained/called peoples: Druid, Witch, Priestess, Gothi/Gythia, Nisut, Helrunar, Seer, etc. But the use of the term “clergy” additionally has both deeply useful ecumenical and legal ramifications. Even as the anarchist in me wants a world in which the red tape is moot, the red tape exists in this moment, and if there are people in need, we should serve them to the best of our abilities. And the combined seasoned experiences, language, methodologies, structures and thoughts of thousands and thousands of clergy persons in many different faith traditions can help us realize that goal.
Um. Holy manifesto, batman! This was not really my intention – as I mentioned, it kind of spiraled out of control. I’ve read this whole tamale five times and I’m still not sure it’s coherent, or says half of what I mean. But for the nonce, as I spin slapdash over streets covered in the bloom of fallen leaves and think on the lessons of pumpkins, I say peace to you, friends. Peace and storytelling.
Grok mess, beloveds. Pray without ceasing.
Okay, this is probably stupid of me. You’re right, this is a mess.
I am finding your writing more and more maddening, and not in a good, thought-provoking, Trickster-enlightening kind of way. To the point where I usually don’t read it anymore. If you want or are called to go down this path, that’s great. More power to ya and all. But don’t expect to take the rest of us along with you.
Because, no. I don’t have to consider Christianity, actually. The baby that may have been in that bath is long since dead. Give it a proper burial and throw out the bathwater. What you are asking is not too far from asking the abused woman to give her violent husband one more chance. No. I will not, and I have that right. It is also, by the way, framing things from the Christian point of view, and the assumption that Christianity is the standard and we Pagans are coming up lacking. Again, no. I want as little Christianity in my Paganism as possible, thank you. And sorry, but I do think they are fundamentally incompatible. I am not interested in mining their successes so that I can learn, or that my religion can learn, to be more like them. Holy fuck—the very idea of that makes me ill.
And I am sick to death of being told that hating the oppressor is just as bad as *being* the oppressor. No, actually, you cannot even begin to compare what Christianity has done to historic Pagans (and would do to modern ones too if given half the chance in a lot of cases) with the wariness many modern Pagans have for it. No.
Oh my Gods so much NO with this.
Seriously, you want to do this? Great. But count me right the fuck out.
I know you have said this is not the case, but all I ever get from your writings on this is that you want Paganism to be more like Christianity—more organized, more centralized, with all that unifying story stuff, more *something.* And again, you do that and it will not be Paganism any more. You may be able to craft something else from it, something that works for you personally, sure. But it won’t be Paganism.
You make my head hurt so much. Please stop.
Thalia, what are you opinions of ADF? I’m honestly curious.
Thalia,
I have said elsewhere that I don’t wish for paganism to become like Christianity, and in one sense I stand by that. But I think this is a matter of interpretation – clearly, from this post, I do think there are aspects to Christianity that I think are useful, so in that way I suppose you might could say that I “want Paganism to be more like Christianity.” I just wouldn’t use that phrasing, as how I see it, I want earth-centered religion to become as fully realized, useful, engaging and helpful as possible – to the world and to itself as itself – and I believe that there are resources available that could help in that venture that I do not believe are inherently corrupt here. But we disagree. And I get that. I do not believe I’ve said certain things that you seem to have read into my post, but I won’t waste both our time trying to convince you so – I made all my arguments above to the best of my current ability.
However: no, I am not going to stop wrestling with these ideas in this space. Seeing as how you are under no obligation to read these posts and possess the agency to choose to stop doing so, I wholly affirm your right to make that choice, as I do anyone’s. This is my blog and these are my thoughts, and I will continue to express them, as is *my* right.
Pace,
RS
Yes, I did say it was stupid of me.
And I must apologize. When I said ‘Please stop’ I certainly was not telling you to shut up about all this. It was exasperation on my part. It was a poor choice of words, or should not, really, have been said in the first place at all, and I am sorry.
And perhaps I have no standing to even have an opinion on any of this in the first place—after all I am a solitary practitioner and an introvert with little need or want for community. Also I am deeply anti-hierarchical and anti-authoritarian. Though, to be fair, when you use words like ‘we’ and ‘Pagani’ you are including me.
And yes, I know that we are ‘living in a culture that is enormously tied up in a Christian cultural and theological and philosophical matrix’ and that a lot of modern Paganism has been influenced by Christianity (cakes and ale anyone? ‘So mote it be’? As far as I know that last one is actually from the Masons, isn’t it?). Which is why I want something that *isn’t.* We are surrounded by Christianity and its influence; even here in New England, which is nowhere near as overtly Christian as the rest of the country, it’s everywhere and in everything. Kids get Good Friday off from public school; up until ten years ago or so you couldn’t buy alcohol on a Sunday or get a tattoo in my state; firehouses and town squares routinely put up Nativity scenes come December.
True, I don’t like Christianity; I personally believe it has proven itself, overall, to be a bad thing, at the very least in terms of its treatment of women and of this Earth. I was not, actually, brought up within it, and in fact grew up in an areligious household, so this is my opinion looking at it, I think, *without* bias, from the position of an outside observer. I think. I could be wrong. Because it is everywhere, like I said, and there really *isn’t* an outside.
So I don’t think I actually wish it any harm. I can’t say I’d mourn if, say, all the priest abuse stuff were to actually bring the Catholic part of it down (which is not going to happen), but I’m not actively working to destroy it or something. But it is dominant, and it makes that dominance felt in just about everything. I am simply sick of having it breathing down my neck all the time.
I certainly have nothing against interfaith dialogue. What I don’t understand, though, is why it always has to be about what we can learn from Christianity? Why aren’t you looking at, say, Buddhist priesthoods, or the Hindu system, or as Doug said Vodou (yes, I know it is syncretic), or, even, (though this won’t provide a living person to talk to, obviously) ancient models, like the priesthood of the Eleusinian Mysteries? Why must it always be Christianity? There are plenty of other models out there.
And thanks for the personal attacks, y’all, and the armchair psychologizing of me. I do appreciate it.
Ruby Sara I know if you and I were to sit down face to face and talk we would have so very much in common, especially when it comes to mystical experiences and beauty. We are disagreeing on maybe .5% of things, here.
I have to agree with Thalia. I can’t begin to explain how Christianity has damaged me, my son and my marriage. Not to mention the thousands of people who have committed suicide because they haven’t measured up to the standards expected of them. I want nothing of Christianity in my Paganism. I was a Christian for well over 50 years so there is nothing you can tell me about it I don’t already know and I know that if the Goddess permits, I will never set foot in a church as long as I live.
I’m ‘cross-eyed….and over-stimulated.
Nothin’ good here about Christianity – - ‘cept Jesus, and He’s just a normal hippie like the rest of us – - Cool guy, really. BTW, he does want his religion back!
So, I do have to admit that your use of “words,” is quite grand…
“Larger-flying, bison-sized issues……?”
Dancing? Shaking a caveat tail-feather? So, what does that mean, anyway?
I have visions of very unnatural things in my head right now…..
From the rain-soaked streets of….a town in Idaho.
Good grief, and good night!
Ruby Sara, I love this and it is one of the most stimulating pieces I’ve read in ages.
As I shimmy past my bookshelf I want to pick up Dietrich Bonhoeffer again. I hear echoes of Julian of Norwich, Therese of Liesieux, the herbal midwife and visionary Hildegard of Bingen and a score of beguines. The lesbian minister Carter Hayward. Texts of black, feminist and liberation theologies. (I studied theology for years, some where between ecstacy and despair.) There is stuff I embrace and stuff I resist.
I live in a part of rural Africa damaged, robbed and betrayed by missionary Christianity.
There are African Zionist worshippers up early on this Sunday morning dancing and drumming as they are spirit-led into Christ as well as into the inscrutable will of ancestors. Down the road a voudoun ceremony has been going on all night with more drumming as the luo rides the moonlight. A local sangoma is consulting in the market place all day, a famous n’anga from eastern Zimbabwe who teaches effective use of herbs and roots. There are white farmers heading to the local Calvinist emporium otherwise known as Dutch Reformed Church, which is turning Pentecostal under the stress of dwindling numbers. Many of the postcolonial diehard Calvinists will also, more secretively, consult with the sangoma in the hope of bringing rain for the crops. This is a deeply syncretic society and yet the struggles are unresolved.
I’m passionately committed to my bioregional landbase, but I also need to resist neo-globalism. We’re off the damn grid more often then we’re on with rolling power black-outs and endemic poverty, shortage of retrovirals to fight the plague, but we are unlearning civilization as imposed by the global north. Secular understandings breathe fresh air into the strategies of resistance but not the secular certainties of the New Atheist model.
Because we’re polylingual ( no fewer than 11 official languages) we can speak about ‘clergy’ in words not tainted with older patterns of privilege and corruption. And some here want to reclaim aspects of the Christian or liberal humanist legacies, while others shrug them off and search for more ancient and liberating expressions. Everyone understands the struggle embedded in power dynamics and how Christinity remains implicated — another brand-new evangelical church recruiting in the next valley, next door to the clinic that administers Big Pharma drug trials to a non-psychiatric population and across the road from a woodland clearing where goats and cattle are sacrificed to appease the ancestors. Struggle and contradictions continue, shadow work in the heart of every spiritual earth-bound, embodied practice. This is how it has always been.
Keep talking.
I think the next question to ask yourself is why do so many Pagans love Selena Fox and her rituals (for example)? What story are they identifying with? What values does she and her ritual work embody? Although you and I are left unmoved, she has a huge following. Is Circle merely a cult of personality?
From my standpoint, the truth of what you’ve written* is in the pudding. Continue doing what you’re doing but don’t bother telling folks what you’re doing. The example will spread because it works. (Now there’s a Pagan value!)
*Since I know what you mean, I likely have filled in gaps or glossed over some things.
Ruby Sara. Thank you very much for this insightful and thought provoking post.
To those who think Christians can be some of the most hateful, cruel, vindictive creatures to ever exist (and if you happen to feel this way, I got your back ‘cause I’m right there with ya), it is simply not beneficial for anyone to ‘just not talk about it’. People letting that anger and hate blind them from open discourse is sad and only serves to further isolate us.
We are steeped in a Christian culture and to say that Christian views don’t not impact our own personal theologies or that ‘we shouldn’t consider how it impacts us’ is short-sighted and limiting. I’m not going to hide away in a little box with my own little views and not engage the world because I’ve been wounded by my ‘violent husband’. I’m certainly NOT going to stay with him (i.e. be a Christian, step foot in a church, etc), but I AM going to reflect (i.e. consider) on how that relationship impacted me… and how it will impact me for the rest of my life.
But to be fair, comparing any religion or faith tradition to an individual person (i.e. violent husband) is overly simplistic. We can avoid an individual person, even kill that person if the necessity arose. However, no matter how hard we may try, we cannot avoid or kill ‘Christianity’. It’s concepts and worldviews are all around us. So, we as Pagans better develop some skills on how we are going to deal with it.
As Jung would postulate, we cannot ever destroy the ‘shadow’ archetype, we can only incorporate it. There is certainly an argument for ‘Christianity’ as a collective ‘shadow’ archetype. The ‘shadow’ is a conglomeration of the traits we deplore and tend to notice in others but never, of course, in ourselves. It consists of parts of our psyche that were damaged or didn’t mature and of which we are ashamed (in this case, the collective psyche of our culture). (Sounds like Christianity to me). We tend to disown these parts of ourselves. Our personal psyches have built up defense mechanisms to keep us from knowing these aspects of our nature. But this certainly doesn’t mean these traits disappear. When denied, they grow stronger–buried in closets of repression. The more we deny or repress the ‘shadow’, the more inflated and distorted it becomes.
Why would we as Pagans want to ‘fall clumsily and surely into the realm of ignorance’ by not engaging with other faith traditions? Pagans are not above being ‘guilty of ignorance’ on a wide varity of subjects. Such conceits as ‘there is nothing you can tell me… I don’t already know’ are self-limiting, self-defense mechanisms in our attempts to avoid the ‘shadow’.
But there really are fantastic examples of people having Christian convictions, (i.e. Martin Luther King Jr.), which demonstrates nothing is completely ‘evil’. We do ourselves an incredible disservice as Pagans by ignoring this fact.
But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it is better to completely reject Christianity. Completely reject any of their views and language, like charity and community (even if they don’t live up to these ideals themselves), because they have a ‘Christian’ label. Hmmm… maybe. On second thought, I would prefer to engage in continuous improvement, change and growth rather than stagnate in a pool of my own beliefs. Real growth and spiritual development is a rough road sometimes. It can make your head hurt. But I find it tragic that the very idea of ‘learning from another religion makes me ill’ (paraphrasing) is seemingly so prevalent in Pagan communities. Really? Can we not at least learn from the ‘damage’ that Christian belief systems have inflicted? ‘Spirit dies when it is shackled to stagnation, oppression, domination, hegemony, etc’
There is tremendous value in interfaith dialogue. Why are so many Pagans threatened by interfaith dialogue with Christians? Why are so many afraid of asking of questions? Is our faith and worldview so very fragile that is cannot stand up to critique? Is there no room for improvement or of change of one’s belief system? Are we so controlled by the pain and the wounds that people with a Christian worldview have inflicted on us that we are now so guarded that we cut ourselves off so completely that we are incapable of engaging in anything beyond our own worldview? Hmmmm… that sounds a lot like dogma to me. In fact, that sounds a lot like the very dogma and oppression that so many Pagans claim to be railing against. Is this dogma somehow now better that it’s self-imposed?
Or perhaps we have such a lack of basic understanding of our own faith tradition that they are simply unable to articulate it, and such a dialogue would be an uncomfortable reminder of that fact. We can’t even come to agreement of what the word ‘Paganism’ even means as a group. So how can changes to ‘Paganism’ make it ‘not paganisim’ anymore?
Critical thinking makes the head hurt sometimes. Isolating yourself isn’t the answer. ‘Please stop’ thinking is NOT the answer.
Shakarr: Yes, yes, yes. You have said it exactly right. This is why Ruby’s post makes sense to me. Her language can be infuriating if only because the words themselves carry connotations we don’t like to feel… because the words are shaped by our Christian past. But her meaning is right on. If we tried to create/inhabit a Paganism devoid of the religious history and context in which we live (which is largely Christian), we could not do it. It’s all part of the spiral, or the dialectical movement of life, or the archetype and “shadow” side, etc.
Charity and community weren’t invented by Christianity, and aren’t exclusively Christian concepts. Do you also feel only Christians can be “moral” individuals?
Your article was insightful if not scatterbrained. I do not agree with everything you have said. I myself try to see the individual instead of the group. I think everyone has forgotten the and religion is at its very base begins with the individual. All my friends come from a verity of: faiths, backgrounds, cultures, races, and sexes. All these individuals make up a beautiful, strong, varied group of people who love, honor and respect each other.
Some of these people, at one time, even believed that witches or pagans were at their core evil. I had no problems telling them that they were wrong. Once they got to know me, they found that what they believed was not only incorrect by spiritually wrong, and also against they own believes. When they tracked down that belief it came from only a handful of people that had set themselves at the core of their church.
It is these individuals that spread their ideas like a virus or cancer, that infect others around them. These people are the ones we should watch out for. They are found everywhere in ALL religions.
We should learn from the good and ignore the hate we see in the faiths around us. Or we have learned nothing at all
Thanks, Ruby Sara, for having the guts and intelligence to write this terrific “think piece” (even though I don’t agree with all of it–agreement isn’t the point, imo) and for writing it so creatively,
Great discussion of theological development and articulation in terms of syncretism and cultural context! I particularly appreciate your pragmatic theological approach – I think it really IS time to find something that “works”. Thanks very much for inviting us along on your theological and faith journey.
As usual, Shakaarr pretty much said everything I was thinking, so I won’t belabor the point. Thanks Shakaarr!
Thalia – stop using Ruby Sara as your personal punching bag. If you don’t want to read the blog, don’t, but don’t take your personal shit out on her. I’m sick of it.
“And again, you do that and it will not be Paganism any more. You may be able to craft something else from it, something that works for you personally, sure. But it won’t be Paganism.”
Oh really? Then what is it? Why not stop the RS abuse and make a constructive theological statement. Theological Imagination and Construction – Engage it.
Hey Y’all,
Thank you for all your comments, both positive and negative. I knew there would be reaction to this topic, and I have tried to say everything I’ve said with an eye towards being considerate of the many viewpoints involved, though I may have failed at many points I’m sure. I appreciate folks taking the time to read it and for all the varied responses.
I have some thoughts in response to specific comments, but time constraints prevent me from engaging them fully at the moment (funny story – due to my egregious lack of understanding when it comes to some technical details, this post went up well before I intended it to, so while I’d mostly finished my thoughts, I was unprepared for it to be posted this weekend). I hope to do that over the course of the week.
For those who vehemently disagree with this post and perhaps with my perspective in general, I can only offer you my respect for your position while maintaining my own, and thank you for reading. If you choose never to read my blog again, then I affirm that choice, say friend, and leave it at that.
And I would reiterate that there is something of a comment policy in place, and to ask that people please try to engage predominantly with ideas in their discourse, and when necessary to be respectful when engaging with individuals.
All the blessings of this Samhaintide, friends.
-RS
It occurs to me that many of the statements and points you’re wanting to make in your argument could be addressed by taking Vodou or Voodoo as an example. Most Pagans/pagans (oddly in my opinion) have some resonance with or esteem for this faith tradition and might be more willing to entertain your ideas given a model that is less weighted in their personal experiences and biases than Christianity.
For example:
Voodoo/Vodou has a unitive story (or set of stories, which I would postulate are based on a set of shared personal and cult “trumps”) which binds practitioners from different areas and flavors of the faith.
It also has a set order of worship, which all the participants learn and can follow along with, without, might I add, a “this is what we’re about to do” game plan stated during ritual *shudder*. This structure serves to highlight and support anti-structure within their rituals and worship services, which is something I believe paganism as a whole needs to work on.
They have a congregational model, which allows them to do service to their gods and their community, but also have a specialized and professional priesthood. These individuals undergo “training, immersion, and skill [and possess] talent and calling to minister well, to lead ritual well and provide pastoral care and support well (and in accordance with the law and ethical codes), to provide informed spiritual direction and perform informed public interfaith dialogue.”
They are a living, syncretic tradition. (Note to Pagans/pagans who might think otherwise: Voodoo/Vodou is a dual faith, formed from the blending of African traditions with Catholicism. I might also note other faiths which are generally considered to be pagan are also dual faith, but that’s outside my current argument.)
Lastly, the practice of Voodoo/Vodou has arisen specifically from a history of oppression, power and privilege, and serves to heal these wounds (not by ignoring them, or pretending that they don’t exist), and working to change the future of society through the power of the Mysteries and the confluence of Will Desire and Belief. The lwa Harriet Tubman and the rite of the Underground Railroad Marriage come to mind.
Realize that I agree with your statements about Christian cultural context, learning from other faith traditions in an objective manner, and about the obstacles created by Paganism’s unwillingness to engage. I am simply suggesting a different way of looking at the same set of values and ideas in a way that’s less inflammatory toward those who obviously have a very visceral revulsion to all things Christian.